Pledge Allegiance

What a fantastic and subversive image! For our American friends replace the Tesco bag with a Wallmart bag and you'll get the general idea. I absolutely love Banksy's work, always interesting and thought provoking. Like all good artists he brings great challenge to the modern age... xc

Comments

[Mike]

This is great. It realy strikes home.

[jude]

Can we make school kids pledge allegiance to that instead of the Queen?

[Carla]

Yeah spooky huh? I saw that story on the BBC at lunchtime. I'm not a queen basher, I think she's a brilliant Dame but weird to think of pledging to her. xc

[Simon]

You have to love the fact that over a hundred years since Parliament changed the need to pledge to God, (a cause fought for by Northampton MP Charles Bradlaugh) they're trying to make every kid in the country swear allegiance to the Queen. What's the punishment if you don't do it?

[Adam Trundle]

Well if the armed forces pledge allegiance to Queen and Country for something to fight for and protect, why cant its citizens take a more active role in showing patriotism
Now I am not suggesting we adopt those flag waving americans traditions where u see them crying and emotional etc (which always seems to make me die of embarrassment on their behalf), BUT we should put greater faith in our country and as sovereign of this country why not swear allegiance to the Queen. Interest in politics and faith in our nation is dwindling and passion needs to return, while some may see nationalism as a cause for prejudice and war and therefore discourage any pride in ur nation in fear of offending someone else, perhaps we should be less PC and obsessed with absorbing every other culture and tradition, and instead be proud of where u live, its history/tradition/culture, and for those who fought to give you this nation.

[Carla]

Abi I'm impressed, that was very considered! xc

[Simon]

Adam - if I thought that pledging allegiance would increase interest in politics and a wider world view, I'd be all for it. Frankly I doubt it'd make much difference when the rest of this "society" is falling around the place.

Kids have no role models, a lot of parents don't care about them, schools are underfunded so they don't get a proper education, I could go on but it'd take months to put it all down.

[jude]

Vicars have to pledge allegiance (and obedience) to the Queen and her descendants too! Am currently trying to work out if I can sneeze at that moment and forever know that I didn't really do it.. nothing personal to Her Maj but....

[Adam Trundle]

Respect and obedience of legitimate authority (including the sovereign) is part of the traditional Conservative tenet of Order and Discipline, perhaps if we start off small with the allegiance to the queen we can help bring society to a better place of respect and order... maybe. It would seem change is needed at any rate. But not change for change sake rather pursuing change to improve society without further damage to it. Under a Labour government? Its past can answer that question...

[Gary Z]

Enjoying all the comments.

As one of those older Americans who sometimes gets unembarassedly emotional at parades and displays of the U.S. flag, I can also remember quite well newsreels showing the teary-eyed expressions displayed by blonde, blue-eyed Aryans as Hitler drove down the streets of Berlin with the Swastika flying over goose-stepping Wehrmacht soldiers. Love of country, love of flag, even love and allegiance to a king or queen can be a positive thing, only when those things stand for something good, moral and righteous (see Proverbs 25: 2-7).

The 19th century French philosopher, De Tocqueville, said that America was great because America was good (that same rule can certainly be applied to our "mother country" Britain, or any country). I fear that America is in the process of losing her "greatness" because she is ceasing to be GOOD. That is why, I can't help shaking my head when I hear people proposing that the answer is MORE patiotism, LESS patriotism, rule by the liberal Democrats, rule by the conservative Republican, yada-yada-yada.

I believe positive change can only come to individuals and nations from the "Top Down", by a sovereign act of God..."When my people, which are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray....." That is why the 24-7 Prayer movement is SO important. America and Britain (and Germany, and all the other countries) will regain their "greatness" when their people get on their knees and pray. This may not fit in with everyone's eschatological views, but I believe it is an historical fact. And as for me, I am praying that more people will PRAY.

God Bless,
~Gary

[carla]

Wow! I too am very much enjoying this discussion. It's amazing how it started with consumerism and has wandered into so many other questions. Gary, I loved ur thoughts, thank u. I think that to return to Banksy's work all people pledge alegiance to something: a nation, leader, God, religion, materialism, wealth, family or a million other things. I liked what Gary said, alegiance itself is not a virtue - the value lies in who or what u align yourself to. Xc

[Adam Trundle]

Interestingly another political philosopher named Jean Jacques Rousseau said that there can only be a good/just citizen when there is a good/just state, but the question that dominates most political philosophy from Plato to Rousseau is how can we have a good/just society? And if it is possible? Many believe pure/true democracy is the answer but that concept can be susceptible to corruption, stagnation and/or lack of direction so the debate continues...
Strangely Gary u said that change can only come from the top down, relating to the Conservative tenet and respect that authority and the authority to enact change is from above and not the masses (usually relating to the politically elite rather than God per say, but I like to publicise the Tories as much as possible ;-)
And why not pledge allegiance to the monarch, a person who dedicates their life to serving the u and I the people and to God. The Queen herself made an oath/allegiance to God and the state to fulfil her duties respectively. What better a moral role model than the Queen who's life has been in total dedication to this nation with a strong unyielding faith?

[Gary Z]

Hmmm…Adam, I have no problem with allegiance to a just and honorable Monarch, though as an American I don’t feel qualified to make any judgment concerning England’s reigning Queen. Having said that, as a passionate follower of King Jesus, I do consider myself to be a Monarchist. ;-)

Concerning my political philosophy, I agree with Churchill: “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.” History is replete with many stories of tyranny from the “top down” (emperors, kings, aristocrats and dictators…too many to list) as well as from the “bottom up”, both the French and Russian Revolutions – one that led to the Reign of Terror and Napoleon, and the other that led to a repressive “dictatorship of the proletariat” and Stalin. It is noteworthy that England was spared the depredations of a violent revolution during a time of great spiritual revival.

When I spoke of “top down”, I meant the transformation of society by the transformation of individual hearts. As a follower of Jesus, I firmly believe that this can only happen as a sovereign act of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit, as an individual comes to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. This is not just a religious philosophy. I believe the historical record confirms that God working through the church (not earthly denominational institutions, but the mystical Body of Christ) has transformed generations, cultures and nations.

Just this old Yank’s two cents…thanks for listening. 

~Gary

[Simon]

True democracy is impossible in the modern world, as the original idea was only for male citizens (not women or slaves) that had any say.

The closest you'd get to real democracy is communism, that's proper Trotskyist stuff none of this dictatorial Leninist/Stalinist stuff.

By the way, back to my original point - not all the armed forces swear allegiance. Only the Army and Air Force. The Navy (the senior service) and the Marines don't swear an oath.

I still dont think that an oath is the right starting place, the whole of society needs to be on the right track first. Once the youth have a system they can respect, only then will they respect the system.

Unfortunately, none of the major political parties will ever be revolutionary enough to scrap the current framework and start from scratch, it'd cost too much in both money and votes.

[Simon]

"Change for change sake rather pursuing change to improve society without further damage to it."

Ever heard of the Welfare State, the NHS, the minimum wage, the right to time off work? Compared to fiddling little things like destroying the unions and taking away free kid's milk it's trivial I know...

[Lili]

Adam I'm very impressed - someone's been studying, but to be honest- I have no idea what anyone's talking about. Except Banksy does rock! and thanks to the wonderful Nicky Barton I own my first Banksy print. I'm starting a collection : )

[She who must be obeyed]

I love my kids.
I'm with you Gary.

[Carla]

We love you too Mum! And I've really appreciated the mature and honest debate on this topic :) xc

[Mike]

Carla,

What a great conversation. As a Brit living in the U.S I often find it sad that Britain does not seem to have the patriotism that America has. Britain has a lot to be proud of and excited about. Britain is a great nation. Maybe there should be more hyper emotionalism, more embarrassing patriotism. If there was I would join in.

[Adam Trundle]

True democracy is not entirely a good idea! Plato believed democracy allowed the stupid to have power and was not the right government for the polis or for humanity to reach its telos (potential). God himself gave humans a king, a authoritarian government with himself as sovereign. In fact human history is dominated by authoritarian rule, good and bad, with only a short period of modern democracy.
The "Royal" Navy does not swear an oath of allegiance as it was commisioned by the monarchy and is the oldest of the military services, I do belive they call our ships HMS (Her/His Majestys Ship). While I agree society does need to change and that the oath idea wont do that completely, it would show teenagers an example of a ancient, honourable and respectful institution.
Of course free healthcare was a great change for the UK, but I believe the current government are the ones who are pushing forward private healthcare, with many dentistry's having to go private because of ridiculous targets set under Labour. While the welfare state gives much needed support to those who need it, under the current government it has been abused to spend huge amounts of money on people who are able to work and putting others worse off like the lower middle class who find increased taxation and decreasing government support. If u really want to attack Conservative policy in the 1980's u shud really consider the adoption of Neo-Liberalism adopting policies of the free market helping to create London as the largest economic centre in the word, boosting the economy and wages after the stagnation of the 1970's. In fact New Labour's economic prosperity in the last ten years developed from Thatchers economic policies, without her Britains economy would have been a lot worst off. If u try to attack her over the unions, why not look at how this country was crippled in 1978 by Union strikes choking the fuel industries plunging many homes into darkness without heat, with garbage piling on the streets, and even family's were unable to bury their dead, how is that fair?! While representation through unions is helpful for workers, having unions that have the power to hold the country at ransom is wrong! And if u want to attack Conservatives for taking milk away from primary schools, Labour were the ones who took milk away from secondary schools before hand.
Ps I love u too mum!
x

[Carla]

Dear Lord, who got Adam onto Thatcher! xc

[Simon]

At least we agree on one thing: there's little difference nowadays between "New" (i.e. non-socialist) Labour and the Tories. The policies have little difference, the whole ethos is the same.

Healthcare should still be free at the point of use for those that need it, and have contributed to the system. Similarly the benefits system needs an overhaul - my view is that unemployment benefits should only be claimed for six months in every five years.

Unions may have had too much power in the late 70s, but they have too little now. As for the milk, secondary school kids already have well formed skeletal structures, it's more essential for the under-10s to get a good dose of calcium every day.

[Adam Trundle]

I will not agree that Tories and New Labour are the same, there's a slight difference called integrity, and the Conservatives still have theirs, I have faith in the party and its principles, Something I cannot say for Labour. Old Labour was the cripled by civil war betwen the socialists, communists and moderates, and through adoption of Tory policies have they had a lot of thir success. Of course Tories aren't perfect and have made mistakes but I am much more wiling to give my vote to them. Ur views on welfare seem to be quite similar to conservative policy's?
While early child development is vital, physical growth and hormonal change is largely in the teens and so bone structure would seem to need more vitamins and calcium during these years as well. Besides its Milk, I'd rather money was spent on education rather than a tea time in schools.

[Simon]

For me, the Tories still cant escape the "sleaze" era, I know it's long gone but that's the way I see it.

New Labour have not, and never will, get my vote. I'm one of those idealistic people that thinks if everyone who wanted the Lib Dems to have a chance actually voted for them, they'd win by a landslide.

The money needs to be spent developing the whole child - mentally, physically, socially. In my opinion far too much emphasis is given over to the physical in the modern curriculum, but thats because I'm a science geek. The money also needs to be spent on the children, not on paying the management in the council.

[Adam Trundle]

Recently there was a interview with ex PM Tony Blair who said he regretted labelling the Tories as "sleeze" admitting that it was not entirely right, and that it was harder to present a squeaky clean image, and how its too easy to give labels to others.
I find it hard to see the majority of people voting for Liberal Democrats in a landslide, theres a reason why people don't believe they can get into power is because they have little firm political beliefs, they sit on the fence over many issues, and being the minority party party with little chance of success have the liberty to support popular pupblic opinions even if there not viable because they will never be able to implement them. But everyone is entitled to their own party preferences.
More money needs to spent on child psychological welbeing, with less emphasis on quick, cheap subsidies of drugs to solve mental issues and psychological disorders.
Besides I think the debate has drifted from the original allegiance issue.